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Re: May 2024 Update

By Pernbronze
5/29/2024 9:27 am
Waitwut wrote:
Pernbronze wrote:
Waitwut wrote:
Pernbronze wrote:
Waitwut wrote:
Pernbronze wrote:
Cjfred68 wrote:
The crux of the problem is any player on offense or defense that touches the ball or is attempting to touch the ball needs at the bare minimum 70 speed.

So when you are playing in a full league with experienced owners by the time you reach round 4....any player with the necessary speed or obtainable speed through position change are gone.

People complain about exploit ball which essentially means using fast players so the simple solution that requires no change to the Sim engine is to create a floor for speed for all players.

50 speed DBs and WRs wouldn't even be invited to an NFL combine so why are they created in the draft class which is significantly smaller then the pool of draft eligible players available in the NFL. Sure slow WRs & DBs exist all through college and they never make anyone's draft board so the Sim should create each draft class with those players automatically eliminated.

This has multiple benefits including making other skills much more valuable and limiting the need to switch so many players to different positions just to gain speed.

That's my opinion.


While a speed cap would help I'd like to see it be the balance of relevant skills. So like if your wr is currently an exploit player with 95 speed but 20 route running then he'd only be running at the speed of a 58 roughly while he's running his routes. Then do the same with catching to determine how fast he can catch and accelerate and then speed and ball carrying after the catch. Factor the other attributes in as play speed. It'd mean 70 speed players with 100 route running would be running like an 85 speed. This is consistent with players that play faster than their 40 time. This I think would be the easiest way to slow down exploit ball.


I’d rather see the talent on the board than complicate matters by rolling out whatever formula this would require. It is extremely punitive given owners have no control over the talent they roster based on the skills the generator provides.

Why does it seem like RO players want to punish everyone while non RO players seemingly just want the game to actually be better.


How is it bad to make the skills other than speed matter? How is it punishing besides you can't just speed exploit everything? There's tons of players with skills other than speed. And your RO hate is just plain weird.


No one has said other skills should not matter. I think where some ideas are about fixing the game through code or player generation, you continuously work in the direction of punish for this or that.

You seem to want to lower the ceiling while other owners are trying to raise the floor.

I get a sense you blame this on other owners, but it is truly just adaptation to the broken game.

Idk where you draw I have any affinity towards RO, but yeah I’d have to say it seems like a waste of time. I’m not really sure how much any of this even affects you in RO because my understanding is you cannot really do much in RO besides stare at your team. I say this knowing there is not much to do in non-RO so there must be even less in RO. How does this actually impact you besides sometimes people do it? Do they win above all other teams in dominant fashion, probably not. You’re just fixated on the optics and coined term.

What has you so sore about this?


You are making zero sense. How is changing the code to better incorporate other skills punishing others and not changing the code? How am I blaming others by trying to fix why exploits work? The only difference between RO and non RO is the play calling. Meaning this particular issue has more effect in RO than non-RO since it's based in players abilities rather than play exploits. You seem oblivious to what anything in the discussion actually means.


Even in your examples you displayed a “ exploit player” as being a 95 speed wr with low route running. The things wrong with this anecdotal representation: was the player generated as a WR? If yes, not an exploit. Does said WR have any other receiver abilities not bottom of the barrel, if yes then why should the speed be diminished due to poor route running?

I think you framed that in a way to make your argument that an owner would purposely do that while overlooking the reality that the game is constantly generating players with these attributes. Hence why you cannot punish an owner for using the player even if it is an outright exploit- mind you I don’t think outright speed only plays, there is still a need for positional skills.

I would carry this further and say that if you run any player at a position long enough they should develop positional skills over time instead of being a perpetual bust.


By exploit player I was referring to exploiting the code in that a wr with 95 speed and no skills will often outperform 80 speed players with good skills. It's got nothing to do with player generation as much as speed is almost all that matters which is completely unrealistic as well as detrimental to gameplay.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Mcbolt55
5/29/2024 9:53 am
I can buy into this multiple roll score. I thought ball carry was supposed to be similar “modifier” for adjusting run speed with the ball. Route run should be the same, and countered by the coverage skills of the defender. Much like the bump and run scores and catching.

The biggest problem with the “physics” rolls or player speed is that the lighter player with more speed will currently dominate without repercussion for being undersized. If force truly matches mass * acceleration, then does our acc skill factor in? Strength should be part of a force calculation as well, as well as the particular type of contact, be it blocking or tackling. I also think height should matter more in contesting passes, or maybe incorporate a “jumping” skill.

It shouldn’t be about just making every player as fast as possible, there should be an impactful sacrifice somewhere. I don’t think the draft should be loaded with quality players, busts should still happen, but players should be created with certain physical mins and max that reflect reality.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Waitwut
5/29/2024 12:28 pm
Something doesn’t seem right clearly. I must miss how pervasive it really is. I feel most high performing WRs I see definitely have speed but rarely do they have less than middling skills.

I think speed is more egregious on the CB personally because you can run that without skills and get a CB that performs okay. I’ve seen lots of success with this in different leagues.

XFL has no rules really, and a quick sort through the history there would support what I’m saying. I just looked at the top receivers last year.

On the CB side from last season you will find Brian Menedez which is a fairly performing CB with minimal position skills.

I find this interesting because exploits are openly used in XFL yet the league reality doesn’t show a speed only WR being superior. There is one sample of a CB in the top ten (sorted based on passes thrown at).
Last edited at 5/29/2024 12:35 pm

Re: May 2024 Update

By Cjfred68
5/29/2024 2:10 pm
For the love of the game please stop quoting each other...it's giving me a headache!!!!

Re: May 2024 Update

By Blondie1977
5/29/2024 2:16 pm
Cjfred68 wrote:
For the love of the game please stop quoting each other...it's giving me a headache!!!!


I’ve given up on reading this thread haha

Re: May 2024 Update

By Waitwut
5/29/2024 3:24 pm
Good on everyone who participates in any way discussing MFN beyond the surface. The whole experience is primarily driven via other owners. This just adds to that.

I hope in the end something happens that results in a better, and continued, experience for ourselves and new owners in the future. I almost don’t care at all how the shoe falls so long as there is a sense of moving forward. Things can’t be any worse than now (right?) and now is really not that bad.
Last edited at 5/29/2024 3:25 pm

Re: May 2024 Update

By Pernbronze
5/29/2024 3:25 pm
I've seen a few cases where it's been utilized to extremes. If memory serves Setheric had a season where his team had like 3 players over 75 overall with 50s starting but they were all fast and destroyed a team of almost all 80s and 90s with good but mostly not 90+ speed and won the championship undefeated.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Cjfred68
5/29/2024 4:15 pm
Pernbronze wrote:
I've seen a few cases where it's been utilized to extremes. If memory serves Setheric had a season where his team had like 3 players over 75 overall with 50s starting but they were all fast and destroyed a team of almost all 80s and 90s with good but mostly not 90+ speed and won the championship undefeated.


That's the rub in a nutshell!!!
The skill set of the owner dictates each league.

*Elite owner beats good owner
*Good owner beats average owner
*average owner beats newbie/absentee owner/A.I.

So beyond that, each league is constructed differently!!

You have a few leagues like the XFL & USFL with 32 owners and around a dozen elite owners, another dozen good owners and 8 average owners which the breakdown constantly in flux because iron sharpens iron and everyone is pushed to get better if they want to win.

Then you have ½ full leagues with 1 or 2 elite owners that take turns winning Titles while 4 good owners battle to play them in the CC and 10 owners like the draft and are trying to figure it out while everyone has enough games versus the AI to feel good about themselves.

Then you have roster only leagues where you put together the best roster possible and cross your fingers.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Waitwut
5/29/2024 5:05 pm
Setherick is like the more composed version of smirt right? I feel like a lot of content and understanding flow back to his forum posts or at least used to.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Pernbronze
5/29/2024 5:12 pm
Setherick was a spreadsheets specialist who pretty much put mfn in numbers and wrote the book on utilizing the engines weaknesses. I'd venture he was the toughest owner in mfn history.