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Main - General MFN Discussion

QB and OL Play

By setherick
11/28/2015 8:53 am
    Let me be upfront. This is a general complaint thread.
This started out as a complaint, but now I've turned the thread into tracking bad QB and OL play.

My 84 QB with 80+ in Arm, Accuracy, Field of Vision, Look Off Defense, and Passing Release just went 5/22 for 105 yards and 4 interceptions. He consistently threw in double or triple coverage despite there being wide open WRs in his field of vision - I assume if he can see the player that is 30 yards down field being covered by a CB and two safeties, he can see the underneath route directly in front of that WR.

http://mfn19.myfootballnow.com/box/1137

I understand that good players will have bad games, but this is one was mind-numbing. Three of the interceptions came in the first half on plays when the QB did not need to force the ball. The fourth interception was a DE interception.

Through five games in our season, the passing game has been terrible in general. Three starting QBs have a QBR of over 90 and only seven additional QBs have a QBR over 80. By way of comparison, the NFL had 16 QBs with a QBR over 90 and 11 more with a QBR over 80 in 2014.

In fact, the number of QBs with a QBR of that rating in the NFL has been consistent the past few years. Here's a break down:

2013 - 7 @ >100, 4 @ >90, 14 @ >80
2012 - 4 @ >100, 6 @ >90, 11 @ >80
2011 - 4 @ >100, 6 @ >90, 10 @ >80
2010 – 4 @ >100, 9 @ >90, 10 @ >80

There are two reasons why our QBR is so low. The first is the lack of accuracy in our league and the second is the number of interceptions.

There are only four QBs in our league with a completion percentage over 60. The league leader has a completion percentage of 68.6%. That looks like a great number until you realize that the player's TD:INT ratio is 3:4, which gives him an interception percentage of 3.3% versus a TD percentage 2.5%. And he's the most accurate QB in our league.

The TD:INT ratios of the three other QBs with a completion percentage over 60 are as follows: 10:8, 5:1, 4:6. So two of the four most accurate QBs in our league have a negative TD:INT ratio. And three out of the four have a interception percentage of over 3% with the highest interception percentage being 5.7%. Again, these are the most accurate QBs in our league.

I realize that this is a sim, and you have to play within the parameters of the sim, and I'm willing to spend time digging into the nuances of the game. But games by a player that should be one of the best QBs in the league make the game really frustrating.
Last edited at 12/03/2015 7:44 am

Re: Bad Games by Good QBs

By Morbid
11/28/2015 9:03 am
I would agree on the part of Field Vision is pretty useless IMO. Way to many forced passes into double and triple coverage's without check downs. Just because the play is long pas doesnt mean the QB has to throw it long, pretty much makes all other checkdown routes run by other players useless.

Re: Bad Games by Good QBs

By WarEagle
11/28/2015 9:11 am
Morbid wrote:
I would agree on the part of Field Vision is pretty useless IMO. Way to many forced passes into double and triple coverage's without check downs. Just because the play is long pas doesnt mean the QB has to throw it long, pretty much makes all other checkdown routes run by other players useless.


+1

Re: Bad Games by Good QBs

By oldbone
11/28/2015 9:24 am
I've only played one game, but noticed this too... with a good FoV, the QB should checkdown... especially when the double-covered WR is **** and the open TE is a 99.

Re: Bad Games by Good QBs

By mrfakename
11/28/2015 11:02 am
3 picks came on the same defensive play. No blockers on offense and the defense blitzed. Fits the bill here. The pressure algorithm was tweaked to enhance defensive effectiveness. It seems that QBs get considerably dummer when pressure is applied. Still i have no trouble getting 90 plus qb rating with a 58 qb. Also pitch and catch rules the game. So at least the D has something to compensate. For now.

Re: Bad Games by Good QBs

By setherick
11/28/2015 11:28 am
mrfakename wrote:
3 picks came on the same defensive play. No blockers on offense and the defense blitzed. Fits the bill here. The pressure algorithm was tweaked to enhance defensive effectiveness. It seems that QBs get considerably dummer when pressure is applied.


I was about to post about what the pressure algorithm and sacks are doing to our league.

Again, we are five games into the season, so the numbers are just starting to normalize. Currently, we have 12 teams with 20 or more sacks on the season. (One team is giving up close to 8 sacks per game.) If those numbers hold, those teams will have given up 64 sacks per game (getting up into David Carr sack taken numbers).

Here are the TD:INT ratios for those teams:
4:11
2:6
13:13
7:3
7:7
3:4
6:5
0:4
8:8
12:10
4:6

There are two things you can do to protect the ball against a heavy rush: (1) go to your hot route and (2) throw the ball away. QBs in the game don't like to check down, so they're not going to their hot routes. They also don't throw the ball away once they are outside of the pocket on their scrambles.

One of the things about the pressure algorithm that has not been discussed is player generation. We have a lot of elite DL (>80 potential) entering the league the past three years. These are using my weights, which I notice will lower overalls on average, so take these numbers for what they are worth.

2018 – 7 @ >80 pot
2017 – 12 @ >80 pot
2016 – 6 @ >80 pot

This doesn't count the number of >70 DL that have entered the league. I haven't run all of the numbers, but I'm certain from skimming through them that there has not been an equivalent number of elite OL.

Teams are getting absolutely destroyed up front on offense. We have two DL on pace for 48 sacks this season:

http://mfn19.myfootballnow.com/player/2378
http://mfn19.myfootballnow.com/player/1025

If they continue in this way, player generation and the pressure algorithm will continue skew defensive numbers up for no good reason.

Finally, in the take it or leave it section. Elite WR and CB/S player generation has been on par with one another. I would like to see more elite WR generated, but I can take this balance:

Wrs

2018 - 4 @ >80 pot
2017 - 3 @ >80 pot (1 @ >80 act)
2016 – 2 @ >80 pot (both are >90 actual now)

Dbs

2018 – 1 @ >80 pot CB / 3 @ >80 pot S/FS
2017 – 3 @ >80 pot CB / 4 @ >80 pot S/FS
2016 – 2 @ >80 pot CB / 3 @ >80 pot S/FS

Re: Bad Games by Good QBs

By Infinity on Trial
11/28/2015 11:49 am
mrfakename wrote:
Also pitch and catch rules the game.


I had to do a double-take when I read that. Even before this offense-busting code change, short passes never seemed viable (for my team or others). I had much higher completion percentages on mid- and long-range passes than short ones, where the QB likes to fire darts about 7 yards off-target.

I have no idea what's causing this season's abrupt problems: Player generation, code change, whatever. I think we can stop calling it a "tweak," though, because the year-to-year difference is more like a code derailment than a tweak. And it's not just the passing game. Rushing averages are down 1-2 ypc across the league, too.

But hey, punt returns are off-the-charts, so that's exciting, right?

Re: Bad Games by Good QBs

By setherick
11/28/2015 12:00 pm
Infinity on Trial wrote:
mrfakename wrote:
Also pitch and catch rules the game.


I had to do a double-take when I read that. Even before this offense-busting code change, short passes never seemed viable (for my team or others). I had much higher completion percentages on mid- and long-range passes than short ones, where the QB likes to fire darts about 7 yards off-target.

[snip]

But hey, punt returns are off-the-charts, so that's exciting, right?


I agree about short passes. But I'm willing to give pitch and catch one last try. I rebuilt my offense with mostly short passing plays. I don't think it'll work, but it'll be worth having some numbers to look at.

I like that the PR game is a factor. I would like it more if offenses were a factor so you didn't have to pray for SPT to bail you out game after game.

---

I want to come back to this point that I was making in a previous post.

setherick wrote:
One of the things about the pressure algorithm that has not been discussed is player generation. We have a lot of elite DL (>80 potential) entering the league the past three years. These are using my weights, which I notice will lower overalls on average, so take these numbers for what they are worth.


Using my weights, I compared the number of exceptional (>70) and elite (>80) potential OL and DL in the past few drafts. The numbers are not pretty. If the generation trends continue in the way they are going, DLs will dominate OLs for the next decade in our league.

Keep in mind that these are using my weights, and that I adjusted my OL weights in order to compensate for the attributes that make DL so dangerous.

DL

2018 – 7 @ >80 pot, 8 @ >70 pot
2017 – 12 @ >80 pot, 9 @ 70 pot
2016 – 6 @ >80 pot, 4 @ >70 pot

OL

2018 – 2 @ >80 pot, 11 @ >70 pot
2017 – 2 @ >80 pot, 2 @ >70 pot
2016 – 1 @ >80 pot, 5 @ >70 pot

If anyone wants to know what weights I'm using for DL and OL, let me know and I will post them.

--

I'm just going to keep adding to this post instead of creating a new one until I run out of space to post.

I mentioned before that once a QB gets outside the tackle they do not throw the ball away often enough. The other issue is that once they have broken contain they do not run upfield. I just compiled the number of rushes and rushing yards for QBs in our league in the first five games and the numbers are atrocious.

Attempts Yards Average
1 1 1
4 10 2.5
3 0 0
3 21 7
0 0 0
2 0 0
3 0 0
0 0 0
4 0 0
1 0 0
10 25 2.5
2 0 0
2 4 2
3 12 4
3 0 0
2 0 0
0 0 0
1 0 0
2 14 7
7 29 4.14
2 5 2.5
2 0 0
2 0 0
1 8 8
4 3 0.75
3 16 5.33
4 0 0
2 2 1
6 0 0
5 3 0.6
3 18 6

In short, based on the numbers through the first five games of our league this year, QB play could be improved by the follow:

1) Improving the FoV skill
2) Improving when a QB throws the ball away
3) Improving QB scrambles (why generate a 99 scramble / 99 speed QB that will never use the skills)
4) Improving the DL/OL generation
5) Improving OL in general to reduce the number of sacks

I'm not saying that any of these would be easy to implement, but it would help balance out the game.
Last edited at 11/28/2015 4:38 pm

Re: Bad Games by Good QBs

By Morbid
11/29/2015 1:45 pm
The problem with most short passes is the cutbacks are not thrown fast enough, by the time the pass is completed its usually for no gain or negative yards. Those passes should be thrown within a second of the snap of the ball.

Re: Bad Games by Good QBs

By setherick
12/03/2015 7:19 am
My 84 QB just ripped off a 15/31 for 110 for 1 TD and 2 INTs. The completion percentage bothers me because I specifically went to a short passing game to limit the number of pressures and sacks to see if affected percentage. Instead, I have more ***** knocked down at the LOS, which is something that was covered in another thread.

A few plays from this game represent how bad general QB has gotten.

Play 1 - On this play both the RB and FB run swing routes from the snap and the TE runs a three yard hook. All three of them are open. The best option the QB has is the TE who looks like he has a seam up the middle of the field. Instead, the QB waits, waits, waits, feels the pass rush, rolls out, and then fires an interception right to the DT (who holds on with his 15 catching). At this point, I about turned the game off and quit.

http://mfn19.myfootballnow.com/watch/1167#216779

Play 2 - This is a long passing play, so I don't fault the QB for looking long first, but watch how this unfolds. The RB in this play runs a short out to the flat and as soon as he's free, he streaks downfield wide open. The defense gets a good push so the QB has to make a decision to throw to the RB or backpedals. He backpedals and, still ignoring the wide open streaking RB, fires the ball downfield to a covered WR. The WR manages to catch the ball, but the play could have easily been a pick-six.

http://mfn19.myfootballnow.com/watch/1167#216910


I actually managed to win this game, somehow, on a PR TD and a 73 yard TD run (only my second 10+ run of the game.)

My opponent of this game of course went 29/46-449-1-0 passing with WRs with a SP of 39 and 65 that managed to get open all game, so I'm sure that there is something I'm sure that I could improve my scouting and gameplanning.