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Re: Getting Back To A "Football" Sim

By Cjfred68
12/23/2020 10:32 am
In my GM Football League, we just finished season 1. The rules dictate you must have 4 FB/TE on the roster and they all must be above 240 pounds.

I made the positions interchangeable for depth reasons but most TEs weighed around 257.

We had TEs that finished the season 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 19th and 22nd in receptions.

Of course their total yardage and yards per catch aren't as high as WRs but that's to be expected averaging around 9.0 yards/reception.

Another factor is actual LBs have to play in coverage on defense which does create some favorable matchups.

Re: Getting Back To A "Football" Sim

By setherick
12/23/2020 10:58 am
TEs vs LBs aren't my concern even at 257# vs 243#, there isn't a big difference between the bonus to SP (and, thus, coverage) that LBs get.

But in sets that innate match the TE (as the WR5) against a DB, the offense is being shut down by the code and not your opponent.

It doesn't matter since I don't use the sets.

Re: Getting Back To A "Football" Sim

By raidergreg69 - League Admin
12/23/2020 11:01 am
setherick wrote:
TEs vs LBs aren't my concern even at 257# vs 243#, there isn't a big difference between the bonus to SP (and, thus, coverage) that LBs get.

But in sets that innate match the TE (as the WR5) against a DB, the offense is being shut down by the code and not your opponent.

It doesn't matter since I don't use the sets.


Then why even bring it up?

Re: Getting Back To A "Football" Sim

By setherick
12/23/2020 11:27 am
Because I thought this was about making the game "fair" for everyone. I'm pointing out things that are inherently not fair with how the game is currently implemented.

Re: Getting Back To A "Football" Sim

By Cjfred68
12/23/2020 11:52 am
Using 5WR or either 1/4 offensive set is always a bad idea since the defense can use 100 pass key for all 3 sets.

I stopped using them years ago and its one of the 1st rules I create for all my teams....defense pass plays....3 offensive sets....100% pass key

Re: Getting Back To A "Football" Sim

By raidergreg69 - League Admin
12/23/2020 12:15 pm
setherick wrote:
Because I thought this was about making the game "fair" for everyone. I'm pointing out things that are inherently not fair with how the game is currently implemented.


Well then you need to write a very large book. If I allow WR to be overridden into the TE spot, then why am I even bothering with making people use 265 lb defensive lineman? I might as well invite Smirt back so he can have a team with 25 WR/CB.

What I mean by getting back to a football sim is I want our teams here to somewhat resemble a real NFL team. That means WR play WR, not TE or RB. And I don't want to hear about jet sweeps, no NFL team uses a WR like the Titans use Derrick Henry, but people do it in MFN all the time.

Seems to me there are 2 reasons to bring this up. Either you plan to use this override and you wanted to see how I feel about it, or you're trying to stir stuff up. As far as I know, nobody here was even using the 1-4 set, but here you are introducing a new override to the league. What the **** man? Are you trying to stir up controversy?

Re: Getting Back To A "Football" Sim

By setherick
12/23/2020 1:09 pm
I have considered it in other leagues - specifically in beta code.

But to be fair, the only reason I haven't done it yet is because I haven't actually thought about it before. I'm constantly trying new things on offense, and this is on a Someday/Maybe list of things to try.

I obviously don't want to try it in this league where it would be exploited by the defense.

---

FYI to Fred's point above. I don't have the links to JDB's comments anymore, but a few years back (and after I had written the basic defensive guide about pass keying), JDB made a comment about Run/Pass Keys.

The main thing that keying does is dictate whether or not the defense is going to bite on the PA fake. That's really about it. There should be an in game bonus to defense, but it's not big enough to matter.

And since the defense auto-keys after they have seen the same play 3 times anyway, there is no reason not to just set your defensive keying to Pass Key 100% of the time so that you're never going to get burned by the PA fake.

Update: Actually I should just update this part of the original guide.

Pass/Run Keying
In v.0.3.x-0.4.1 keying was key to a good defense. Now, you don't need it. Really. Hear me out.

The play overuse penalty does something interesting in the backend of the defensive code: it overrides whatever key you put in to the correct key for the offensive play. Think about it. Let it sink in. What does that mean?

It means that your base defensive playbook should use all Neutral key because once your opponent starts overusing one of their plays, the defense is just going to adjust anyway.

The only time you should change your key is on your all passing plays defensive rule and maybe some other rules below.
Last edited at 12/23/2020 1:11 pm

Re: Getting Back To A "Football" Sim

By Cjfred68
12/23/2020 1:33 pm
setherick wrote:


FYI to Fred's point above. I don't have the links to JDB's comments anymore, but a few years back (and after I had written the basic defensive guide about pass keying), JDB made a comment about Run/Pass Keys.

The main thing that keying does is dictate whether or not the defense is going to bite on the PA fake. That's really about it. There should be an in game bonus to defense, but it's not big enough to matter.

And since the defense auto-keys after they have seen the same play 3 times anyway, there is no reason not to just set your defensive keying to Pass Key 100% of the time so that you're never going to get burned by the PA fake.

Update: Actually I should just update this part of the original guide.

Pass/Run Keying
In v.0.3.x-0.4.1 keying was key to a good defense. Now, you don't need it. Really. Hear me out.

The play overuse penalty does something interesting in the backend of the defensive code: it overrides whatever key you put in to the correct key for the offensive play. Think about it. Let it sink in. What does that mean?

It means that your base defensive playbook should use all Neutral key because once your opponent starts overusing one of their plays, the defense is just going to adjust anyway.

The only time you should change your key is on your all passing plays defensive rule and maybe some other rules below.


Disagree with this 100%.

Re: Getting Back To A "Football" Sim

By setherick
12/23/2020 1:51 pm
I mean you can disagree with what I'm saying, but that's how keying works.

Original implementation: https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/forums/1/276?page=1#1434

Later comments.

By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
6/22/2015 8:06 pm
In your defensive game planning you can set probabilities for run/pass key.

If you are in run key, your DB's line up closer to the LOS, your rushers get off their blocks faster, and in general your defense has a bonus in terms of getting to the RB's hole quicker if the play is a run play. Similarly, the DB's play deeper and have a coverage bonus, and the DL has a pass rush bonus if you called a pass key against a pass play. If you call a pass play against a run play or vice versa, the bonuses go to the offensive advantage.[/quote]

[quote]By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
8/06/2016 11:50 am
Key run: slight boost to your defensive line in run defense, LB's and DB's play closer to the line and are quicker to get to the hole. Slight penalty to your defensive line in pass defense and to your DB's in the pass coverage attributes. Key pass: exactly the opposite of key run. Neutral: no penalties or boots.

Re: Getting Back To A "Football" Sim

By Cjfred68
12/23/2020 2:08 pm
setherick wrote:
I mean you can disagree with what I'm saying, but that's how keying works.

Original implementation: https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/forums/1/276?page=1#1434

Later comments.

By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
6/22/2015 8:06 pm
In your defensive game planning you can set probabilities for run/pass key.

If you are in run key, your DB's line up closer to the LOS, your rushers get off their blocks faster, and in general your defense has a bonus in terms of getting to the RB's hole quicker if the play is a run play. Similarly, the DB's play deeper and have a coverage bonus, and the DL has a pass rush bonus if you called a pass key against a pass play. If you call a pass play against a run play or vice versa, the bonuses go to the offensive advantage.


By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
8/06/2016 11:50 am
Key run: slight boost to your defensive line in run defense, LB's and DB's play closer to the line and are quicker to get to the hole. Slight penalty to your defensive line in pass defense and to your DB's in the pass coverage attributes. Key pass: exactly the opposite of key run. Neutral: no penalties or boots.


The above is completely different to what you wrote earlier....it only effects biting on the PA...thats what I disagreed with.

If I scout someone and they only pass out of the 212 or 113 set and I use 100% pass key versus them...completion percentage goes down and interceptions go up.

In the previous post...you make it sound nearly useless then the 2nd post says the advantage goes to the defense on a pass play if they are in the right key...pretty big difference
Last edited at 12/23/2020 2:12 pm